Tuesday, September 16, 2014

The Realist Report - Pastor Eli James & Joseph Atwill debate


On this edition of The Realist Report, we'll be joined by two Christian and Biblical scholars who have radically different perspectives of the origins of Christianity, the historicity of Jesus Christ, and a variety of other topics relating to the Christian religion and ancient history. Pastor Eli James, author of The Great Impersonation: How the Anti-christ has Deceived the Whole World, and Joseph Atwill, author of Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus, will participate in a moderated discussion about these subjects. You can download the entire program here.

27 comments:

  1. Love to see/hear it all. And hopefully it will come out that Christ was not really a last name of that man who supposedly even existed.
    Since there were the Mayans, Egyptians etc. who ALL had someone who was born of a virgin, did miracles and died and rose from the dead 3 days later. The SUN rose!

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    1. You do know Zeitkike is not based on any actual facts?

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  2. Atwill's evidence is more convincing IMO. But both gentlemen debated well.

    Inspired by his findings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV6tietCX5Q

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  3. This is the problem I have with Christianity and it's a very common problem. Christians claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and it is this Holy Spirit, we are told, that leads one into Truth, and yet we have thousands of denominations and goodness knows how many translations of the Bible. This cannot be from any Holy Spirit as if as the Bible says God is not the author of confusion and that God and the Holy Spirit are One then obviously this confusion is not from God but is all man made. This is a result of 'belief systems' and NOT KNOWING. Now, while I don't deny there is some history in the Bible it is clearly mythology, symbolism and allegory veiling Truths of a SPIRITUAL nature. For example:

    Gal 4:22-26

    For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Note v 24 WHICH THINGS ARE AN ALLEGORY - so its telling you to work out the meaning, and that these people and places are symbolic of something within us.

    If we continue along the lines of belief then it is no different to Holocaustianity, and many may argue against that but that's the bottom line.

    Now, I would suggest that just like Holocaustianity all that Christianity need do is - SHOW US THE EVIDENCE of the historicity of Biblical stories. Snakes do not talk, an ass does not talk, seas do not part etc etc

    Forty years in the wilderness with Moses, some estimate the numbers to be 2 million approx., with all their cattle, equipment, gold, etc etc yet not a single thing has been found, nor of Moses, Abraham, David, Solomon etc

    To finish, and no disrespect to these gentlemen, but this is another example of how we get BELIEFS and will argue our BELIEFS are the right BELIEFS and as we see in events today many will even cause wars to uphold that BELIEF. This is exactly the same as the Holocaust which many 'believers' of Christianity will shout out loud 'it isn't based on historical fact and evidence'. We've had some 1700 years of this belief system and the believers can't agree among themselves what the interpretation is let alone find any historical evidence, we haven't got another 1700 years !! Surely intelligent people who claim to have studied the Bible can see that something isn't right and that they are NOT being led by some Holy Spirit into all truth.

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    1. We've had more than 1700 years.

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    2. I was basically counting the time from when Christianity became a 'power' in Europe and in the process destroying and removing the traditions and heritage of our people's, in effect we in the West have been Judaized by Christianity and the East by Islam controlled in the Middle by Judaism.

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  4. Dear V. K. Clark, I find it very difficult to believe you are serious. The floor was mopped with Atwill and his "um...um..ums" and his incessant "we can agree on this/that" limping about.

    Additionally, the behavior James' details is entirely congruent with what we see happening to.

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    1. Rape in the "Holy" Bible: http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
      Old Testament misogyny: http://www.evilbible.com/sexism_in_the_torah.htm
      Advocacy of murder and rapine: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
      General evils of the Old Testament: http://www.evilbible.com/evils%20of%20the%20torah.htm

      Any race that claims this as its history is a race I want nothing to do with. As such, John and I agree to disagree about CI. ;^)

      The New Testament is a different story. The Flavians invented it with a specific motive in mind: to bring Jewry to heel. That's why it contradicts the OT in too many ways to count.

      Atwill won. The documentary "Caesar's Messiah" says it well IMO.

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  5. stupid is as stupid does...

    why not just start with Genesis and go to the end of the Old Testament looking for
    a "Jew" speaking yiddish and chanting the Kol Nidre on Yom Kippur, with a copy of the Talmud...who hates Jesus.

    http://jyrilina.com/

    I thought Eli did a swell Job, and acquitted himself well for being a former catholic..
    he did stipulate to the Racial Identity of the White People..."Gentiles" being actual
    "Israelites"...not Jesus hating "Jews"...{Greeks & Romans & Europeans}

    he did touch on Deuteronomy, and might have pointed out Deut. 28 & 32, and talked somewhat about Jesus' Fathers' "business" which really didn't include "Usury" in
    the Temple Treasury by Edomite "Money Changers"....& Pharisees.

    http://buelahman.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/looking-for-somebody-to-bomb/

    great first "grade" first step for the slow learners and Haters of Truth who have no
    real desire to understand that which is too difficult to "square" with the last century
    of the leaven of the Pharisees seeping into their braindeadgoy BRAINS from Talmudvision...
    http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2014/09/03/phil-duck-of-death-robertson-says-covert-or-kill-isis-ready-to-send-your-kids-to-fight/
    GOOD SHOW JOHN.

    sincerely

    Davy

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  6. I'm with Charles Gulliani .... you can't trust anything these Jews have touched.

    steve

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  7. Excellent points Steve! Centuries of bad reading! Shaul-Paulus-Paul initiated the collapse of Antiquity by 'spreading the Gospel' to all the lowly, botched, and disinherited of the time. Now ALL could enter the Kingdom! Everyone now becomes a child of god. One must learn to read well to peel the 'onion layers' off the narratives of the Gospels and see the mysterium tremendum et fascinans that lies within- the Holy!

    Dionysos, Osiris, Mithras, and others are all gods of birth, death, and resurrection all welded to the flow of the seasons determined by the course of the sun. Born on the winter solstice, resurrected in the Spring, and beginning the decline about the autumnal equinox. Also, Christ was portrayed for years as a serpent (wisdom) before being portrayed as a man nailed to the cross. The caduceus as a symbol of healing and John 3:14!

    http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLMf5GjOIbqe_Y-_qzDLQgd9Vajx91ezrODPmEYB2Mcfk3nswNHw

    You might like these Steve if your not in tune already:

    http://edwardmd.wordpress.com/2013/09/18/the-real-truth-about-religion-and-its-origins/

    http://www.amazon.com/Rites-Symbols-Initiation-Mircea-Eliade/dp/0882143581/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1410987771&sr=1-9&keywords=mircea+eliade+books

    http://www.amazon.com/Symbols-Transformation-Collected-Works-Vol-5/dp/0691018154/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1410989194&sr=1-1&keywords=symbols+of+transformation

    His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
    Jesus said, "It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be a matter of saying 'here it is' or 'there it is.' The kingdom of the Father is spread out on the earth and men do not see it." -Gospel of Thomas (Verse 113)

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    1. Thanks Ed,

      Will check it out

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    2. Hi Ed and thanks for taking the time to post the links, I have done quite a bit of study on this, thanks.

      Be ye wise as serpents - the symbol of the serpent is very complex, but yes on one level it does symbolise wisdom.

      That Jesus on one level represents the Sun and the 12 tribes/disciples represent the zodiac is, to open minded people, beyond doubt - da Vinci's painting of the Last Supper so obviously pointing to the Sun at the centre and the '12' divided in 4 groups of 3 - representing the seasons and 3 signs per season.

      The simplest question for anyone to ask in my opinion though is to take a look at the two holiest holidays of the Christian religion, if the Bible is so called history of an actual living being then why is his birth and death/resurrection based on astronomy and not historical, known dates ? Yes, I've heard of the excuse given that it was to incorporate the pagans etc - but that's such an obvious lie. But it doesn't stop at being mere astronomy/astrology - these have a corresponding 'attribute/function' within the human brain, for example the 12 cranial nerves in the brain, also the 12 disciples each represent an attribute of human consciousness/personality. The stories, characters and places, are allegorical stories of the drama taking place in our minds, the evolution of the battle between our higher mind and lower mind - the meanings of the persons name and the meaning of the name of the city give meaning to the type of consciousness/mind set - city in the Bible symbolises a mind set.

      Males in the Bible represent the Mind and sons represent the thoughts of that mind set manifesting, likewise females represent emotion and daughters representing the resulting emotion manifesting, so Eve represents the Emotions ( lower or higher ) and if we are being led by the emotions then that will intercourse with Adam ( our thinking ) and deceive us - isn't it obvious today that events are targeting our lower emotions resulting in us not critically thinking things through ? Religion feeds emotions and depends on emotions as do most things in this deceived world.

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  8. John- now would be a good time to bring Mike Sledge on to talk about the excellent show he did when he was with Renegade entitled Religious Trilateralism and the Control Grid which can be found on youtube. in it he makes the case that after inventing Judaism, the Jews invented Catholicism followed by Islam, etc. to bring more people under their control.

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    1. My guess is that if his theory holds weight, then the earliest forms of control were in the form of organized religion. Later on when banking systems which quickly evolved into becoming the root and source of governmental power, then organized religions became slightly less needed by those operating the control grid, i.e- Communism. However today there seems to be a tight partnership amongst organized religion, banking, and government due to the controllers seeing the obviously extra control advantages that organized religion offers like getting one to enlist and fight for one's country because of emotionally charged religious beliefs.

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  9. Here's my WIP slide shows for Caesar's Messiah:
    http://slidepub.com/gaLbpCx_ikWM5QeWK3DijQ/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9H9tAVcaHU

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  10. http://edomsthorn.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/edom-the-story-of-jacob-and-esau-is-not-just-a-stor/

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  11. PROTOCOL No. 14

    1. When we come into our kingdom it will be undesirable for us that there should exist any other religion than ours of the One God with whom our destiny is bound up by our position as the Chosen People and through whom our same destiny is united with the destinies of the world. We must therefore sweep away all other forms of belief. If this gives birth to the atheists whom we see to-day, it will not, being only a transitional stage, interfere with our views, but will serve as a warning for those generations which will hearken to our preaching of the religion of Moses, that, by its stable and thoroughly elaborated system has brought all the peoples of the world into subjection to us. Therein we shall emphasize its mystical right, on which, as we shall say, all its educative power is based

    In their own words - Judaism, Christianity and Islam religions of Moses is THEIR Abrihamic operating system.

    http://k007.kiwi6.com/hotlink/dgs6w6t82f/Truth_Hertz_with_Charles_Giuliani_2014.09.18.mp3

    Charles nails it.

    Steve.

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    1. Hi and thanks for your messages. I haven't been ignoring you just wasn't sure the best way I can reply. I have listened to most of Charlie's talk shows and the only way I can honestly answer is: on one level I agree with Charlie yet on another level I totally disagree with Charlie

      What I've just said may be confusing to some but it's not to me.

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    2. Hi Steve,

      On what level do you disagree with Charles?

      All I'm saying is it's their original form of controlled opposition...it's all they have ever known to do.

      steve

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  12. Eli, you dropped the ball. Over and over Joseph Atwill faulted the Christian teaching to obey those governments who rule over us. If atwillstein had any understanding of history ,he would understand that it is part of our (true Isreal) punishment for disobedience known as the 7 times of punishment which expired at the founding of this country which also coincided with satan (Jews) being freed after a thousand years in the pit to deceive the nations again. I suggest every one listen to the Christogenea podcast of Bill Fincks study on the book of Romans part 18 titled Government as a punishment from God. Mr Atwillberg Finck would have cleaned your antichrist clock. Thanks John Titus 1:14

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  13. Well hosted, lively, and a cordial debate despite two highly opposed views. Great job, John.

    Atwill clearly won. He presents a consistent argument. Pastor Eli can rightly see the damage the Catholic Church and Jewry have done to Europe, and the barrage of propaganda we're subjected to, but he has to employ extreme doublethink to hang on to the beloved character of Jesus.

    I was scratching my head trying to understand the “Jesus is not a Jew” arguments which were full of contradiction. There WAS a kind of Jewish takeover of the nation of Israel, true, but I’d argue this first happened when King David of the southern region of Judea took control of the monarchy (David killed Saul and his family and conspired with the Philistines to do it, by the way), so Jews (ancestors of Judah, forth son of Jacob) then claimed the history of all of Israel as their own (This is not unique. The Akkadians took over Sumeria, and afterword called themselves Akkadians and/or Sumerians). David was then Jewish, and if Jesus was descended from David he would also be a member of the tribe that overthrew Israel (although he wasn’t descended from David, really, since it was a virgin birth! Oops, no genetic material from his ‘step dad’ Joseph, making his blood all his mother’s! So much for Jesus being a pure Judahite and following the patrilineal line in true Israelite tradition!)

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  14. Eli mentions that Edomites weren’t really Judahites, and this is genetically true, but this was the common act of one culture trying to merge with another and taking over their name (Judea took ownership of the name Israel, then Edom converted to Judaism and tried to take ownership of the names Judea and Israel. See how that works?). This is exactly the process Atwill argues happened with the word Christian — the original Christians (a Greek term for Jewish Messianists) were the militaristic Jews rebelling against Rome (the group setting fires in Rome and being fed to the lions were NOT the pacifistic Jesus-variety of Christians) and the Romans TOOK OVER THE NAME and then falsified the history of the origins of their new brand of Judaism (similar to what the Edomites tried to do with ‘Jew’). So Eli accepts ‘Jew’ is a usurpation of a previous culture but completely rejects out of hand the possibility that ‘Christian’ is another usurpation of Israel by the Romans. If it happened before, is it not possible that it happened again? The Khazarians and Edomites did it, but the Romans couldn’t?

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  15. I’m amazed that Eli can seriously claim “The Bible is the most accurate work of history of all time”. Isn’t believing a book to be divine and infallible a form of idolatry? The infallible book, or the infallible person, are the ancient big lies, the poison pills that slaves are expected to swallow. How many thousands of years is it going to take for us to keep falling for this simple trick?

    I’m convinced there is real history contained in the Bible (saying ‘it’s all myth’ is much too minimalist), but there’s also fantasy, propaganda, and clear plagiarism mixed in too. Just because some details of history are confirmed independently by other cultures it does not follow that every other detail must also be true. God does not write books, it's not perfect! There are biases, mistakes, agendas, omissions, etc., because HUMAN BEINGS write them.

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  16. The Gospels are not pro-Roman? They are on a careful reading. Pontius Pilate is not blamed for Christ’s execution — Jews are. Tax collectors are portrayed in a positive light, when tax revolt was the very reason for the Jewish Rebellions (starting in 6 CE). ‘Render unto Caesar’ simply means ‘pay your taxes’. The Gospels tell the reader to take a Roman soldiers pack an extra mile (Matt 5:41). Soldiers of occupying armies are portrayed positively (the pious centurion in Matt 8:5 and Luke 7:5).

    These are unlikely the genuine perspective of Jewish Rebels who hated Rome, despised giving her taxes, and hated her military. The New Testament is watered down, pro-Roman, domesticated Judaism when compared to the much-suppressed 'War Scroll' of Qumran.

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  17. Atwill’s argument about the coming of the Son of Man is devastating to the literalist Christian — a reader of the New Testament and Josephus MUST conclude that Titus is the Messiah IF HE READS LOGICALLY. The train of thought is this:

    1) Jesus predicted Jerusalem would be destroyed. (Matt 24:2)
    2) Jesus’s prediction came true in 70 AD.
    3) Jesus predicted the Son of Man would come within a generation (Matt 24:34) before the destruction.
    4) Titus Flavius came within a generation destroying Jerusalem exactly as Jesus described.
    5) Therefore, Jesus must mean Caesar Titus Flavius when describing the Son of Man, the true Messiah.

    The superstitious reader must accept contradictions to avoid this conclusion. If Jesus is accepted as a prophet with divine powers to predict the future AND it is believed that Jesus is the Son of Man, the believer must confront that Jesus got the destruction of Jerusalem right but his own Second Coming wrong. This would mean that Jesus isn’t divine because he made a mistake. If the reader affirms Jesus’s divinity he must respect his words, and the only person the prophecy could then refer to is the leader who destroyed Jerusalem, Titus Flavius. Many Christians twist the meaning of ‘generation’ to delay the prophecy, but this is simply ignoring the direct words of Jesus.

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  18. Joseph Kikewill is full of Scheiss, have a listen - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnV0cJgTRiM

    Eli did a good job, but William finck can do better.

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